Series posted by Michael Kline (MKLINE@VDH), early 1993.

Understanding Homosexuality and Experiencing Genuine Change. John Ankerberg / Barry Pintar Show 1, Part 1

John: Welcome, in today's program we're entering the public debate over homosexuality. We've entitled the series "Understanding what homo- sexuality is, and experiencing genuine change." You're going to hear from psychiatrists, psychologists, and experts in science. But primarily, you'll hear from men and women who were homosexually oriented their entire lives, yet came to understand what homosexuality is, turned away from it, and experienced real change.

I want to thank Emmy Award winner, Barry Pintar, for giving us per- mission to use excerpts from his documentary on homosexuality which is being distributed by Impact Resources (800-333-6475). (Impact Resources Corp.; PO Box 1169; Murrieta, CA 92564)

To begin today, I'd like you to meet some of the people you'll be hearing from during this series who grew up knowing only homosexual desires, but eventually came to experience real change.

Jonathan Hunter - I'm able to look at a man now, not erotically, and love that person for the creation God made him, and for a woman as my compliment.

Diane Eller Boyko - It was really sad and depressing because I knew that I needed something from these relationships, I didn't know what it was, and I wasn't getting it.

Other woman - Here are these women who I just feel good around. They just accept me, they just give me all that love that I didn't get growing up.

Greg Dickson - I was ashamed of the homosexuals attractions, and I felt very gay, fag, and queer.

Barry Pintar - It's uncomfortable. It's scary. It's a mystery. Homosexuality is a word that's unspoken family, taboo in churches, and divisive in societies through out the world, and for good reason. Shock- ing few of us understand it. Where does it come from? Why does it exist? How will it affect me? As much as you are able, within the next hour, try to let go of the fear and anxiety that words like gay, lesbian, and homosexual invoke in most of us.

Nothing you are about to see will shock you or offend you in any way. What you will see is open conversation between men and women who have labeled themselves homosexual. You'll also hear from doctors, therapists, and counselors who have devoted their lives to understanding as best as possible, homosexuality.

In part 2 of this video, these experts will go one step further and discuss their belief that homosexuality or attraction to the same sex, same sex attraction, can be altered or changed to heterosexuality, or attraction to the opposite sex.

Sadly some will point fingers and criticize the men and women who want to change. Ironically, on one hand, it's okay to fight for gay rights, but it's not okay to want to change. In this video you will hear from people who want to change. They say whether they were living in a homosexual lifestyle, or living a celibate life of loneliness or married and frustrated, these feelings have never gone away. They say they were scared and confused and desperate for answers.

John: My guest here in the studio is Joe Dallas. He's an author, counselor, founder of Genesis Counseling Center located in Southern Cal- ifornia, and President of Exodus International. Besides his busy prac- tice, he's currently completing his internship for the California Mar- riage and Family, and Child Counseling license.

Joe, welcome to our program. One of the last things that Barry Pintar stated was that we're going to hear from people who lived the homosexual lifestyle, and then they decided they wanted to change. Now I suspect a lot of people in our audience, they think it's impossible for a true homosexual to change. Is that true or false?

Joe: Absolutely false. Of course people of all kinds can change, homosexuals included. As you see in this video, there are men and women who have become dissatisfied with there homosexuality, seek absolute changes, and experience absolute changes. That's nothing new, by the way, John, as far ago as Biblical times, Paul told the Corinthian church about homosexuality, and then he said to them, "such WERE" past tense "some of you." So, on both theological and professional authority we can abso- lutely say that homosexuals can and do change.

------------------------------------------------------------------------- Understanding Homosexuality and Experiencing Genuine Change. John Ankerberg / Barry Pintar Show 1, Part 2

John: Now the goal of our program is to help people understand what homosexuality is and to show that real change is possible. When we listen to the excerpts from the men and women who talk about what it was like to live the homosexual lifestyle, what should our audience be listening for that will help them to understand what caused these folks to turn to homosexuality?

Joe: We're going to be looking at the stories of Greg, and Jonathan, and Diane. These are men and women who were not born gay, but were born, with emotional needs for bonding and love from the same sex. Needs that obviously were not fully satisfied as they'll tell you.

Now we know that all of us are born with needs and that we all don't get those needs satisfied perfectly. Some people, for example, who did not feel loved by their father may express that unmet need by joining a gang, by possibly getting involved in some other sort of violence, maybe turning to drugs or alcohol, homosexuality is just one of many manifes- tations of unmet need. It is also one of many manifestations of the sin- ful fallen nature that we all have.

Now a common thread that you'll notice in all of these stories, John, is that these people grew up felling somehow cut off or alienated, either from their parent of the same sex, or their peers of the same sex. And you'll find they'll tell you that a great part of their healing occurred because they finally found legitimate ways to get those needs met.

John: All right. Now as we go to the video clips, see if you can pick up the needs that these folks say went unfulfilled and led them to seek fulfillment of those needs through same sex experiences. We're going to begin with Greg. Greg is 34 years old and as far back as he can remember he felt he was different.

Greg: I think all of my life I felt very different from the boy down the street. I never felt, even though on the exterior and I was competing with them in school and we were doing all the same things, I never felt like the boys down the street.

Later, I thought that all had to do with sexuality, when I got older and because sometime in the process the sexual feelings began and those were definitely directed towards men, and I assumed that was the differ- ence. But when I look back, I realize now that I didn't feel that I was a part of the boys my age, or that I was like them.

John: Diane also had the same feelings of insecurity. Her childhood started off secure enough, her parents were missionaries, and she was raised in a home with the best of Christian values. But like Greg, as far back as Diane could remember, she was different.

Diane: It was really sad, and depressing because I knew that I needed something from these relationships. I didn't know what it was and I wasn't getting it. So I would depressed a lot of my adolescent years, I was depressed. And I was even more troubled when my girlfriend couldn't spend the quantity of time that I wanted to spend with her, 'cause she was seeing guys.

And so I felt bad, and I thought "How come I need to spend so much time with her, and she doesn't need to spend that with me? Is there some- thing wrong with me?" And so that idea, that something is wrong, that something bad is happening, that could send me into a further depression.

John: Jonathan Hunter works in a ministry that specializes in homo- sexuality and AIDS, Desert Stream Ministries. He visits public schools, talking openly about with students about homosexuality and AIDS, and visits AIDS patients who once enmeshed in the homosexual lifestyle, have been immobilized with AIDS, the most terrifying of diseases. Jonathan too, for as long as he can remember, has had to deal with homosexual feelings.

Jonathan: My brother, myself, the two sons in the family, the only children. My father was an alcoholic most of my life. And, my mother probably later in life, she died when I was 17. The damage had already been done. My father was present in the house, I stayed home, my brother went away to school, but he was present, and yet not emotionality.

He just couldn't handle the loss of a job, I think it was very early on, I think I was probably around 9 when he just stopped working for years, and the problems in the marriage. And he just sort of dislocated from me, and so the bonding I needed, the sense of security that I needed just wasn't there from him. He couldn't affirm me in my masculinity, he was having problems with it himself, with the alcoholism, and a marriage that was really always on the rocks.

And so, there's a deficit there. You see if a child isn't getting that bonding, and I didn't from the very early age, he just couldn't relate to me. The physically was strained between us. That's going to have to be met, somehow, isn't it? We have basic needs that God built into all of us, for bonding between our fathers and our mothers. If we don't get it, they're going to come out some way later on.

------------------------------------------------------------------------- Understanding Homosexuality and Experiencing Genuine Change. John Ankerberg / Barry Pintar Show 1, Part 3

Barry Pinter: Joe Dallas is a marriage and family counselor who spe- cializes in homosexual attractions. His book, "Desires In Conflict" is written to the Christian who feels trapped in a life he or she doesn't want. Joe's practice is in southern California.

I should say Joe's busy practice. People struggling with homosexual feelings are practically lined up at his door. There is a mind-boggling number of people aching to talk to someone about the feelings they don't want to have.

Joe: Of course in the psychiatric community, in all fairness, there is a lot of doubt, as to whether or not the work we do is even valid. Not as much as some would have you believe. As of now the American Psychiat- ric Association has still not officially said that homosexuality is an unchangeable condition, or that it is even a healthy condition. All they have said, based on their 1973 decision, is that homosexuality does not constitute a mental illness, and I agree with that decision. I don't think homosexuality is a mental illness. I think it's a sexual disorder, but not a mental illness.

John: Now, Joe, you stated that homosexuality is a sexual disorder. In terms of the people that we were just listening to, how are their lives examples of sexual disorder?

Joe: Well let's look at what Jonathan was saying about his relation- ship with his father. He didn't feel as though his father had the affec- tion or the time for him that he needed, so Jonathan was left with an emotional need for a father's love and affirmation. Rather than getting that need met in normal ways, Jonathan sought it's satisfaction through abnormal needs, homosexuality.

That is why I say homosexuality represents a basic emotional need which is legitimate which is trying to be met through illegitimate ways.

John: Now in the stories you've heard, you've probably noticed a pattern of emotional deficits, or extreme emptiness in everyone that we've talked to so far. Their needs can be real for the whole world to see, or they can be imagined or even perceived by the child.

Now of course, many people with the same needs don't end up to be homosexual. Psychologists say these needs can manifest themselves in many ways. Men can become extremely promiscuous, going from woman to woman. Women can develop a strong emotional dependance on other men.

Now in the cases of our interviewees, they ended up with same-sex attractions. In all cases, the victims find themselves wounded, and searching.

Joe: It takes a lot of introspection. It takes looking at what may have lead to the homosexual attractions in the first place. Homosexual attractions are an indication that there is something very legitimate and healthy that a man or woman is looking for, but they're looking for it in the wrong way. The KEY in my opinion, to real healing, real change, is finding out what it is you have been looking for through the homosexual relating, whether it's been in homosexual fantasies, or in actual homo- sexual behavior, and find legitimate ways of getting that satisfaction.

John: All right, Joe, you said that homosexual attractions indicate that people are looking to fulfil legitimate needs. But they're looking to fulfil those needs in the wrong way and in the wrong places. What did you mean?

Joe: Our audience may find it strange to think that anyone would ever choose to seek emotional satisfaction through sexual contact with the same sex, but that really isn't such a strange concept. Many of us have strong emotional needs that were unmet that we try to seek fulfillment in through behavior later in life.

For example, the man who is a work-a-holic may have felt a strong early need to approved. A woman who is very promiscuous as an adult may have felt a strong early unmet need for affection, to be touched an loved. So it is with homosexuality, and we can all relate to the need to be loved by our fathers, and we can all relate to the pain of not always being loved the way we wanted to be loved.

In many cases that need evolves from an emotional need to a sexual need, not in all cases, it may evolve into something else. But in the cases of the men and women that we are looking at today, that early need for love and affection from the same sex, evolved into a sexual need.

------------------------------------------------------------------------- Understanding Homosexuality and Experiencing Genuine Change. John Ankerberg / Barry Pintar Show 1, Part 4

John: All right, as you listen to the next part of the video, please keep that in mind.

Diane: I was attracted for, to an emotional connection, an emotional intimacy. That's what I wanted. I wanted that so bad that I wanted to be glued to this woman. And I wanted it from a woman, I didn't want it from a man. (Barry: You didn't want any sex from a man what so ever?) No. No. I wanted it with a woman, it was just a "Goddess" look, and it was like "Oh, if I can possess that, and have that through a sexual act. If I can possess that, then I will somehow be able to be seen as beautiful, and I will somehow be more in touch with my own feminity."

Greg: Now looking back I can see that I was attracted to connect with this man, and my only perceived way of connecting with him was sexually. (Barry: What do you mean you were attracted to, what did you say you were attracted to?) I was attracted to, I think I wanted a relationship, I wanted to be, I was attracted physically, as well. But as I look back on it I can see where that, I was needing to connect with men, and that was my perception of how to do it.

Barry: Many find a way to ease the pain of their emotional search, through same sex encounters. Somewhere, somehow, they believe their needs can be filled through their same sex. For a while they deny the attrac- tion, but then in the confusion of the struggle, the search is on to fill that void.

Other Woman: After meeting, women, after playing sports, and feeling comfortable, I just got, I started realizing that I was attracted to this one gal, and I just pursued it. I just pursued it.

Greg: I never woke up one day and said, "Wow, today, from this day forward I'm going to be attracted to men, or I'm going to..." There was certainly no choice in that matter. That's just the way it was.

John: Dr. Joe Nicolosi, specializes in working with male homosexuals. He has appeared on several network news magazine television programs, and has been interviewed by the best of weekly news publications. His book, "Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality" has gained him world wide respect as an authority in same-sex attractions.

Dr. Joe: This man called me up. I think he had heard me on a tv pro- gram, and he was very, very anxious. He said, "Can I really change?" I said "Yes you can change." (Barry: This was a 16 year old?) This was a 16 year old boy with sexual feelings. A 16 year old boy, very anxious about his homosexual feelings, he does not like them. His father died when he was 9 years old, and he said "I'm seeing a counselor now, and she said 'That's how you are, you can't change.' She said 'Your trying to change to become heterosexual is like a cat trying to be a dog.'" Of course, when he heard that he felt very, very sad, felt very hopeless.

You see, most men that come to me have been to therapists before, who have said to them "Look, you're born this way," Again, there's no evi- dence of that. "You're born this way. Learn to live with it, learn to accept it." And these men just can't accept it.

John: You know as we listen to these men and women tell why they turned to same-sex experiences, I think we can understand that they had emotional needs. But what's hard for us to understand is why did they turn to homosexual relationships to try and fulfil those needs?

Joe: Because turning to people of our own sex is one of the earliest social emotional needs that we have. Little boys need to first bond with little boys before they mature and move on into heterosexual relation- ship, the same with little girls. Now many of us successfully went through that phase and moved into heterosexuality, but for those who did not, that need for same-sex bonding remained even into adolescence and it eventually evolved into a sexual need.

------------------------------------------------------------------------- Understanding Homosexuality and Experiencing Genuine Change. John Ankerberg / Barry Pintar Show 1, Part 5

John: Here's another question that is commonly brought up. Are peo- ple born with homosexual tendencies? Well recently on ABC, Dr. Deen Adel said that the study of identical twins seems to suggest that homosexu- ality is genetically determined. But I've found that the experts say that he's wrong. I'd like you to hear what Joe Dallas told me, in a previous interview and I'd like you to listen to gay rights activists, Dr. Simon LeVay at the Salk Institute, then from Dr. Joseph Nicolosi, Clinical Director of the Thomas Aquinas Psychological Clinic. And finally, to Dr. Charles Socarides, Clinical Professor of Psychiatry at the Albert Ein- stein College of Medicine in New York College in New York City.

Joe: Now, We've been told for months now, the printed word, the media, that studies have shown conclusively that homosexuality is genetic in origin, that people are born gay. That it's an unchangeable condition and it should be accepted there fore just as skin color and left han- dedness are accepted as different, but entirely normal.

Now we know by the admission of some of the people who have conducted the studies, such as Dr. Simon LeVay, Pillard, Bailey, who did studies on twins, that these studies are not conclusive. You know the scientists themselves have admitted that. They have admitted ON RECORD that their studies do NOT determine cause and affect.

Dr. Simon LeVay, Salk Institute, CA: Not in my work nor any other work that's been done so far, really totally clarifies the situation of what makes people gay or straight. I think my work and some of the other work in the twin studies that have been done pointing very much to the direction that there are inborn determinants, biological determinants to people's sexual orientation, but it would be WAY too early to rule out other environmental factors. In fact the twin studies, for example, sug- gest that it's not totally inborn because even identical twins are not always the same sexual orientation. So it will probably end up being some combination of genes and nurture.

Dr. Joseph Nicolosi, Thomas Aquinas Psychological Clinic: I myself have reviewed all the literature, including LeVay's study, and I cer- tainly don't believe in that, and I don't think any scientist really believes that there is a biological predetermination for sexual orienta- tion. There's much more evidence for early environmental factors, that would set the stage for a person's sexual orientation.

Dr. Charles Socarides, Prof., Albert Einstein College, NY: This theory, I believe, is completely erroneous. There's no possibility of somebody developing homosexuality from hereditary or organic causes. It's just impossible.

John: All right Joe, I'm going to give you the last word on this. I'd like you to respond to Dr. Deen Adel and explain why you've concluded that the study on identical twins does not demonstrate that homosexuality is genetically determined.

Joe: Simply because if homosexuality is genetically determined, identical twins should always share the same sexual orientation. The verdict is in on this evidence, John, even pro-gay researchers are admitting that there has never been conclusive proof showing homosexu- ality is in born. There is overwhelming evidence that there are environ- mental factors that play into it.

John: As we conclude our first program in this series about under- standing what homosexuality is, and experiencing genuine change, what do you want our audience to remember?

Joe: Remember that Jesus said we are the light of the world. That means we have a responsibility to shed light and illumination on tough subjects, homosexuality included. Now you've seen the stories of these men and women who showed that homosexuality begins as a set of legitimate emotional needs that eventually evolved, at least in their cases into sexual needs for members of the same sex. That is the homosexual condi- tion in a nutshell. Is it a changeable condition? Absolutely. God cer- tainly doesn't condemn as sin without also offering a way out of the sin. That way out comes through faith in Christ, proper relationship with God, and an important point, proper relationship with people in which the emotional needs that were not met early in life can finally been ful- filled, as we'll see in these stories.

John: Next week in our second program, you'll hear why men and women struggling with their homosexual desires, came to the point of wanting to change...